Call —
Transcript batch
0:00 Caller: Fred, how are you?
0:00 You: Hi, Owen.
0:04 You: I'm well, although I suspect this is not the kind, well, I don't think you were expecting to receive the message I sent.
0:07 Caller: No, no, I wasn't.
0:13 Caller: So I just wanted to sort of have a chat with you to see if there's sort of, I'll be completely transparent.
0:20 Caller: Is there, if there's anything I can sort of help or assist or to sort of change your mind on the matter.
0:29 Caller: obviously I know you had a couple of sort of questions on the biological experience which I've had confirmation that that's absolutely not that they don't need someone with that I think at the end of the day in regards to that he in regards to that it's it doesn't really matter what data it is that you're putting through the platform and if that is obviously metadata or if that's biological or if it could be anything could be animals it could be
0:30 You: Thank you.
0:58 Caller: I don't know, H&M shop, I don't think it matters.
1:00 You: Thank you.
1:02 Caller: Whilst I don't think it doesn't matter and that's why they wanted someone of that sort of that high-scale background,
1:07 Caller: which is obviously why I got in contact with you originally.
1:11 Caller: So, and then when it comes to salary as well, Jed, like they're quite an open book.
1:17 Caller: Obviously, appreciate you're on around the 300 mark at the moment.
1:20 Caller: Happy to push it, even to like 350, which is obviously at that sort of level of money that you're on,
1:26 Caller: is like nearly a 15, 20% income.
1:28 Caller: which is, I think is high, especially for an exciting start-up like this,
1:30 You: The processes that I'm running.
1:33 Caller: where you'll get equity options being the founding member.
1:36 Caller: So, yeah, I haven't got much else I can say on the matter of Jeds.
1:41 Caller: I just would like, yeah, where's your head at?
1:45 You: The processes that I'm running are even higher than that.
1:56 You: So there's a chance I priced too low.
1:58 Caller: Okay. Other processes, as in other processes, as in other processes, as in your interviewing
2:00 You: if they're willing, well, that's the short answer.
2:09 Caller: in other processes, is that right?
2:11 You: Correct. So after your outreach, I think you were early on in, you were the first to catch my profile
2:12 Caller: Oh, okay.
2:15 Caller: Okay.
2:17 Caller: Okay.
2:18 You: when the LinkedIn algorithm updated, because after your first outreach, about a dozen others came through.
2:21 Caller: Okay.
2:22 Caller: Okay.
2:23 Caller: Okay.
2:25 Caller: Ha ha.
2:26 Caller: Of course.
2:27 Caller: they followed suit. It's like they had a little camera on me.
2:30 You: Beyond the recruiter stage, now six.
2:31 Caller: Look, make sense, Jed. Your profile's great, so I can see why other people would reach out.
2:37 Caller: How many businesses are you now in process with?
2:41 Caller: You're in six other interview processes?
2:50 You: Yes, spread between private equity, hedge funds and one of the, one of the, what do you call those?
2:52 Caller: Wow.
2:57 Caller: Oh, okay. Who's the AI Lab?
3:00 You: Lab's OpenA. There, it's either going to be senior or staff, so depends on how that comes through, but looking at levels, FYI, that puts it at 500 to 700.
3:04 Caller: Oh, okay. I've been AI, fair enough. And what sort of money are they offering?
3:11 Caller: Right, okay.
3:26 Caller: Okay.
3:27 Caller: So my question to you, Jed, now, is like, obviously, speaking to them, what sort of money is it going to need to be to sort of really tickle your fancy with this?
3:30 You: Thank you.
3:43 Caller: Obviously, we can then, obviously, rather than just officially pulling you out of the process, obviously, we can let them make that decision if it is to do with money, if that, if that's the reason for pulling out, obviously, they could turn around and just say, yeah,
3:57 Caller: will pay it. Obviously, we don't know the answer to that question without asking, do we?
4:00 You: Well, knowing what I know about what they've officially fundraised, that would meaningfully cut their runway.
4:02 Caller: So they've raised them 6 million.
4:10 You: So if they offered that much, I think that would hurt both of us, not just them.
4:19 You: Or rather, the pressure to deliver, the pressure to deliver beyond, to deliver, to deliver, rises, rises substantially substantially.
4:30 You: if the runway gets cut short.
4:32 Caller: You know,
4:32 You: That's partly why I suggest reaching out and confirming with them if the problem they're trying to solve is truly data at scale versus search.
4:34 Caller: Thank you.
4:45 You: Because the data problem, LLMs, are very capable of solving.
4:50 You: I'm not really concerned about that.
4:52 You: The search problem, I'm less confident, but I think that's more a consequence of my lack of,
4:59 You: lack of expertise in that space versus LLM capability or established search tools.
5:04 Caller: Thank you.
5:07 You: I think the biggest distinction, and this is something a search expert will have to confirm,
5:13 You: is if the language of biology, and I mean this in terms of chemical compounds, so to you or I,
5:20 You: it's an abstract set of characters, but to a chemist, it means it has something meaningful.
5:26 You: if there is a search algorithm that can surface meaningful results off of those seemingly arbitrary strings.
5:34 Caller: Right.
5:37 You: In theory, it sounds like a completely new language, the same way I might want to build a search engine in Dutch, but that is only in theory.
5:41 Caller: Right.
5:42 Caller: Right.
5:46 You: I don't know what it's like in practice.
5:47 Caller: Okay.
5:48 Caller: Okay.
5:49 Caller: And depending on the answer to that question, are you still,
5:54 Caller: are you still wanting to withdraw from the answer to that question, are you still wanting to withdraw from the process?
5:56 You: And I'm not sure they can either.
5:59 Caller: Or could you be enticed if the, depending on what way the answer to that question, guys,
6:03 Caller: answer to that question goes, because obviously I can't answer that, unfortunately, but I can ask.
6:11 You: But I don't think it's a data volume problem.
6:16 You: I think it's a search and indexing problem.
6:18 You: And even though they ask for someone with metascale experience, I'm not entirely convinced that it's
6:26 You: is the correct solution. I don't want to tell them how their problem, how to frame their own
6:32 You: problem, but that is the, how do I describe it? That appears to be the kind of solution they need,
6:33 Caller: Thank you.
6:41 You: which would be most complementary to Ivan. Ivan already is capable in terms of processing data
6:47 You: at scale. He used to work at CERN. It's being able to organize that data, index it, and make it retrievable,
6:56 You: that, one, makes a substantial product that cell type can launch to the pharmaceutical companies
7:02 You: instead of relying on turbopuffer, and two, becomes a very defensible moat as any more startups or
7:03 Caller: Okay.
7:10 Caller: Okay.
7:11 Caller: Okay.
7:12 You: upstarts try to encroach in that space.
7:21 You: I think at the beginning of our exchanges, Owen,
7:26 You: cell type was leading. And then as more processes started coming on board, what they were
7:33 Caller: Okay, and who's leading the race at the moment, then, then, in your process,
7:33 You: offering in terms of upside and scope, at least the way it was presented to me, is much better aligned
7:41 You: to my skills, knowledge, and experience. Comp aside. Open AI.
7:49 Caller: in your processes, open AI.
7:53 Caller: Yeah.
7:54 Caller: Yeah.
7:55 Caller: Obviously, if they're offering, how far are you in the process with this?
7:56 You: I acknowledge the risk. I acknowledge the risk. I'm in two, around two of, I think, five or six. Unclear how the rest of it will go. And even if it doesn't come through, there are still the PE firms and the hedge funds. So, I recognize that asking
8:00 Caller: Because what I wouldn't want you to do is obviously,
8:03 Caller: declining this and then open AI doesn't happen and then you then and then, and then we sort of,
8:26 You: Ivan and David to wait, potentially two months, is not fair to them. And I believe you
8:32 You: already had another candidate that was on deck. So hopefully it's not too big of a step back.
8:33 Caller: Yes, yeah, they've got that chat with them today, but he's been extremely complimentary of you.
8:46 Caller: He's seen a few, he's seen a lot of people, not all from me, we sort of got the end, we got the end of the,
8:53 Caller: basically he's used a lot of recruiters, Jed, and then I've sort of come in and sort of pitched him, and then we've managed to get some really good individuals.
8:56 You: Thank you.
9:03 Caller: like you across, which they're over the moon with, but he's seen a lot of people, and the feedback we're getting is that you're by far the best person that they've seen.
9:12 Caller: And so, obviously, I don't know how this other person's going to get on.
9:18 Caller: Obviously, I've told you he's, he's worked at Meta previously, like yourself. That's what all the candidates are, because that's what he asked me to try and get.
9:26 You: I won't ask them to them to the value, I can't, how I can't, the value,
9:26 Caller: So, look, I've got the questions. I've got a note-taker, Jed, I'll be honest. I've got all of that,
9:32 Caller: noted, and then I can try and find the answers, and then, yeah, look, I don't know if they're going to be able to pay you Jed to half a million, 700K, to be honest, but they might be able to go a fair bit more than 300, no, it's a lot.
9:54 You: guarantee the value that they would need to justify that outlay, especially to their investors.
9:59 Caller: Yeah, of course.
10:01 You: The alternative would be a consulting type arrangement, but I don't know if Ivan would go for that. I know he's capable. I don't doubt that he's capable as an agentic engineer.
10:02 Caller: Yes.
10:11 You: And I also know that he learned a lot from me during our technical session the other day.
10:16 Caller: Yes.
10:18 You: So if not having me full time, at least being able to upskill whoever he ends up
10:23 You: bringing on maybe a more appropriate trade of value. And I just need to make sure you're also taken care of.
10:32 Caller: Yeah. Oh, yeah, when it comes from a consulting basis, we can do that anyway. So yeah, don't worry. We can basically put you in as a contractor and then charge, you'll come through Helix, essentially, and then we will charge cell types slash Ivan. So yeah, don't worry. We would still get, yeah, we would still get something out of that, of course. But it's just if he's going to want to take on a contractor as in yourself and then also bring on someone full time as well.
10:53 You: Thank you.
11:02 Caller: So, yeah, look, I'll tell you what, Jed, I'll let the, I'm going to let the other interview today play out, and then I will, as I normally would, ask for feedback off that person and then also put your questions in the mix and then also say that you're interviewing now with Open AI.
11:18 Caller: I think it's just better, to be honest.
11:21 Caller: So from your opinion on it all now, if they were to offer more, or you did go and see them and you really liked them, and they offered you a bit more money and higher equity, and you've got all of your questions answers.
11:23 You: Thank you.
11:24 You: Thank you.
11:32 Caller: in the correct way or the way that would make you more comfortable, would you still want to see the process out with Open AI?
11:41 Caller: Is there anything that I or they can do their end to stop that from happening?
11:45 Caller: Because, look, two months is a long time. Jed, if you was in final rounds and it was like, look, we can, I'm going to know this month, I could probably, I could probably keep it, keep them in the lurch sort of thing because it's not too much time.
11:54 You: I acknowledge and I'm willing to take that I'm willing to take that risk. I don't know if they will accept the risk for themselves.
11:59 Caller: But that amount of time and that amount of interviews is going to be very different.
12:02 Caller: difficult. So.
12:10 You: And if they will accept the risk for themselves. And if they do, that's fine. If they don't, that's also fine for me. I don't know what other plates are spinning in their universe. And in terms of the number of recruiters working this role. I figure there are many. Only because two others reached out to me.
12:24 You: about cell type after you did. And that was weeks after you first reached out to me.
12:30 You: So I can only imagine they're cycling through as many different shops.
12:32 Caller: Yeah, yeah. I've had candidates sort of open AI and get to the latter stages and then it sort of doesn't become good. So that's my only fee. I'm not saying that that would happen to you, Jack, because you've got a very, very good. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, of course, because if your salary is five to 700,000, it's like over double what you're running now, isn't it?
12:47 You: Oh, I recognize my odds are one in a hundred shops. So the upside is worth taking the
12:52 You: upside is worth taking the risk.
12:54 You: Oh, that's that's total comp. So I don't know how the equity portion would work out or on what valuation the equity works out. That's a different conversation.
13:02 Caller: All right. Okay, so it's total comp. So with cell type, the total comps could be, let's say they went to a 350, 400K base, and then your equity was like 2%. That would be more than that, wouldn't it?
13:24 You: Thank you.
13:25 Caller: Obviously, it's a very big, there is a risk element with cell type because there isn't anything tangible right now, whereas OpenAI, it's tangible, isn't it?
13:31 You: Thank you.
13:32 Caller: And I get that. But obviously, sell type, there's an opportunity. They've literally got, they're having conversations with five big pharmaceutical companies right now. And they're also employing a head of strategy and partnerships position, founding member that I'm recruiting for at the moment. And there's some very, very high level individuals that they're bringing in to do that side of the business, which is then obviously going to bring in more business naturally if they're hiring someone like that. So that once they start getting some contracts and big farmers,
13:54 You: I acknowledge.
14:02 Caller: and biotex signed up to their platform, then all of a sudden you 2% could be worth millions.
14:07 Caller: I'm not saying it will, Jed, in the near future, but there's obviously that chance.
14:12 You: There's series A series A with a six million dollars.
14:15 Caller: They've got 6 million yet. Obviously, they're going to, there will be more funding in the future if needed, but they're hoping that these contracts are going to be enough if they get signed.
14:24 You: So $6 million at a typical A round of 20% implies post-money valuation of $30 million, times 2% of that represents $600,000 in present value.
14:32 Caller: Yeah, plus your basic.
14:40 You: So if that the $30 million goes to, I don't know, let's say 100, that $600,000 represents approximately on 0.8, but that's pre-dilution.
14:53 You: And then once you get to the B round,
14:54 You: dilution is usually around 30 to 40%.
14:58 You: So I acknowledge the upside with cell type. I believe that they can achieve it if they can solve the
15:02 Caller: Yes.
15:06 You: search problem. I also know that, at least with OpenAI and the PE firms, those are much more
15:15 You: liquid. And my biggest fear with any startup is ending up like some of the early employees at a.
15:17 Caller: Yes.
15:24 You: like windsurf or scale AI. The windsurf story, the founder was effectively bought out by
15:31 You: open AI, but the company itself wasn't acquired. So the founder made their bag and the others were
15:32 Caller: Thank you.
15:41 You: left holding it, as it were. Scale AI very similar. The founder and the early investors got
15:48 You: their returns. Everyone else didn't. And until the specific antitrust provision that drove this,
15:54 You: aqua-hire-based strategy goes away or gets amended, that is a risk that I anticipate will continue to persist.
16:02 Caller: yeah okay right so i don't think by the sounds of it is just yeah i don't think this is just yeah i don't think this is completely dead in the water i think let's get them questions answered let me have the conversation on packages and all that sort of thing and just mention that you're now in process with open ai they're not stupid individuals are they jed so they'll know what that's going to entail and the sort of money and everything can the more of a if you do get in there if you do get in there obviously look
16:24 You: Thank you.
16:32 Caller: we're shooting in the stars as you say it could be one and a hundred but you could very well be that one and a hundred and the sort of packages that they offer if you are that individual for them um so yeah cool look let me let me ask these questions i'll get the answer i'll send them across to you let you rather think on them i'll try and speak to ivan on the phone um just about yourself and everything and just explain that you're in this other processes and you wasn't before um and just see what he says
16:54 You: I don't.
17:02 Caller: really because if he then says that's not a problem or well it just depends on how he reacts to that he may well go oh we're not going to be able to get anywhere near that then that answers all of our questions doesn't it but if he doesn't then it might be worth seeing them for a final
17:24 You: We'll find out in roughly one or two weeks as I go through the next wave of rounds.
17:31 You: I assume with everyone else I talk to.
17:32 Caller: So, oh, right, so you wouldn't be agreeing to a final for one to two weeks, is that right, until the other rounds have been completed in your other interview processes.
17:34 You: If everyone else I talk to.
17:46 You: If I imagine, let's say, I'd
17:50 You: become my final round with the other
17:52 You: processes, then I imagine, let's say, half the rounds I don't pass or they become my final round with the other processes, then
17:54 You: then taking the final with cell type becomes more attractive only because
17:59 You: everything else, everyone else, or the half of everyone else withdrew, which is expected.
18:02 Caller: Would you say that they're second to open AI in your interest and who you want to work for?
18:05 You: It's becoming a numbers game.
18:18 Caller: You wouldn't, so they're not even number two.
18:21 Caller: How far down are they in your six?
18:24 You: probably four or five behind two of the hedge funds and one of the PE firms.
18:32 Caller: Okay, and how much are they paying?
18:33 You: So the hedge fund one of the PE firms. So the hedge fund won total comp is supposed to be on the
18:44 You: order of 900,000 first year, but it's base plus performance-related bonus. So that's based on the last
18:51 You: three years of fund performance. But because it's a hedge fund performance, but because it's a hedge fund,
18:54 You: and because it's a corn role and because it's at Greenfield, there's a lot of ambiguity behind that number.
19:00 You: So it's entirely possible that the PM, the portfolio manager that I'm talking to, is trying to anchor high to attract talent.
19:02 Caller: Okay.
19:10 You: But it's certainly not a contractual number.
19:14 You: And then for the PE firm's same principle.
19:17 You: The base is similar on the order of 300, 350, but the upside is
19:19 Caller: Yep.
19:20 Caller: Yep.
19:21 Caller: Yep.
19:24 You: participation in what's called the carry. So the fee that the PE firm takes from the investor
19:31 You: in exchange for the returns, as well as participation in the upside and equity taken from the portfolio
19:32 Caller: Okay.
19:38 You: companies. And most of that, the liquidity comes from the limited partners in the fund.
19:43 Caller: Yeah.
19:44 Caller: Yep.
19:48 You: So all of this is relatively new to me. It's a different part of finance than where I started my
19:54 You: career, but it's compelling, but I'm also trying to do my diligence there
20:02 Caller: Yeah. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. It just, yeah. All right. Look, I've got another call. I say I've got another call, actually. I've got to pick my kids up from school. So I'm going to quickly do that. And then I will try and get you some answers to your questions. Obviously, just let me know if you need anything.
20:04 You: there as well, because it's a little too compelling if you understand my stance.
20:24 You: Absolutely.
20:29 You: I'm sorry this wasn't better news, Owen.
20:30 Caller: Perfect. Thanks, Jeff.
20:31 Caller: No, that's all right. It's not your fault. No problem. Well, it is your fault, but it these things, ha, it's completely your fault, but these things happen. I completely understand. I've been doing this a long time. No problem. I'll speak you soon. Take care, mate. Bye.